quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
Way to be cliche. Most pregnancies aren't as horrible as you liberals seem to make them out to be.

Cliche? Are you actually denying the fact that women go through drastic changes during pregnancy?
ALL pregnant women have very extreme changes to their bodies. ALL pregnant women have fluctuations from normal hormone production.

And, (assuming that most women seeking abortion are unmarried) pregnant, unmarried women are totally looked down on by society.

There is no cliche, no exaggeration in what I said. The woman has to face the whole world for nine months, while the man is practically blameless. Unless he constantly wears a Tee shirt with a picture of her face saying, "I knocked this chick up, it's my fault too." then no one will know he has made any mistake whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
The blame for procreation falls on both parties, and both parties should have a say in the matter.

To a certain extent, yes. The blame falls on both, but the nine-month burden, and the shame, falls almost completely on the woman.

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Remember Wolfie, if you make an outrageous claim, always make sure to back it up with citations and sources.

Of all the men I've known in my life who were expecting to be fathers, I don't know a single one that was indifferent to the baby they couldn't see. Whatever your bullshit pseudo-scientific source says, it does not speak for all men. Humans are mammals, what separates mammals from reptiles and birds, is our ability to become attached to our offspring, whether they're born or not. It's called empathy.

Anyway, with today's technology allowing ultrasounds to be in high-def 3-D imaging, your point fails either way.

Wow, you sure do like to generalize. I'm sure you've met a total of 10 expecting farthers. What a wide range of people. lol, most mammal males leave the mother after mating and take absolutely no part in the rearing of offspring.

Oh, just to be annoying like you, give me a source that says the opposite of what i am saying about children and their fathers. Come on, disprove me with some evidence. I'll be really when you realize you can't. ^.-

lol, if you could have the choice why would you allow your kid to be retarded? First off, they will never ever truly be able to change anything in this world because they will just be a burden on other people. That's not to say they aren't people but if this was the wild, they would in no way be able to survive. I'm sorry that I have the instinct to make sure my kid will be the best they can be. It really is no reflection of weakness. Why would I burden myself with that when I don't have to? What is it with idiots and giving themselves more work than is necessary or required. This is what's wrong with America.

quote:

"How dare you dispose of a bundle of cells that may possibly have one day been a human being! What's wrong with you?
Why couldn't you just carry it around for nine months, have your body ruined, go through extreme physical changes, hormonal fluctuations, emotional mood swings, and face the shame of having everyone know you spread your legs and ended up pregnant while I walked around completely, inconspicuously blameless?!?"

That makes a lot of sense if you life in a completely masogonist society where all blame for procreations falls on the woman's shoulders.

Way to be cliche. Most pregnancies aren't as horrible as you liberals seem to make them out to be.

Believe it or not, some men see abortion as the killing of their future children, and while I don't condone violence, I completely understand when they do lash out in response. I've read plenty of stories from women where they've aborted their husband's/boyfriend's babies and ended up going through extremely messy break-ups. And not once did I feel any sympathy for the women.

If you're a dude who is cool with that, good for you. However, I'm just pissed off at girls who feel the need to either surprise them with information like that or who use that as an emotional weapon.

I proudly admit that I am a misogynist, in that I hate women, with the fire of a thousand suns. However, I do support gender equality. Which is why I think it's unfair that men are allowed to be walked all over, have their lives completely ruined, stressed to the point of suicide by women, yet if they so much as yell at a woman, the cops can be called and they're usually thrown in jail. It's no wonder domestic violence is such a problem.

And don't worry I hate men too. I just don't like it when one gender is favored over another.

The blame for procreation falls on both parties, and both parties should have a say in the matter.

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Men don't love their 'children' until they see them. Women love their children once they are pregnant with them.

This has been scientifically proven. A man does not truly love and/or want to protect his child until he sees it.

Remember Wolfie, if you make an outrageous claim, always make sure to back it up with citations and sources.

Of all the men I've known in my life who were expecting to be fathers, I don't know a single one that was indifferent to the baby they couldn't see. Whatever your bullshit pseudo-scientific source says, it does not speak for all men. Humans are mammals, what separates mammals from reptiles and birds, is our ability to become attached to our offspring, whether they're born or not. It's called empathy.

Anyway, with today's technology allowing ultrasounds to be in high-def 3-D imaging, your point fails either way.

quote:

Why should you have a kid if you aren't ready for one? Isn't that unfair to a child? Forcing it to live a life that isn't the best it could be?

Life sucks. That's just how it is. Every person on Earth is given the option to either dwell on the suckiness of their lives, or to develop the strength to overcome it. I'm living proof that it's possible.

I personally think it's even more unfair to rob a child of any life at all on the basis of speculation.

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You know what I'm going to do. If I ever have a kid, I'm picking the gender, the eye color, the potential intelligence of it and all that shit. And if I find out that I'm pregnant with a child with down's syndrome or something, that sucker's coming out.

Well, I've met and known of some amazing people who are mentally challenged, that are a hundred times more pleasant to be around than people of "normal" intellects. So really, I'd say that's your loss and total reflection of how weak you really are.

Men don't love their 'children' until they see them. Women love their children once they are pregnant with them.

This has been scientifically proven. A man does not truly love and/or want to protect his child until he sees it.

Men should have no say in abortions. sorry, it's a purely womens' issue.

None of this matters anyways because pro-life people will change nothing. The government will never reverse roe v. wade and for good reason.

Why should you have a kid if you aren't ready for one? Isn't that unfair to a child? Forcing it to live a life that isn't the best it could be?

You know what I'm going to do. If I ever have a kid, I'm picking the gender, the eye color, the potential intelligence of it and all that shit. And if I find out that I'm pregnant with a child with down's syndrome or something, that sucker's coming out.

People seem to think that each time you have an abortion you are killing an individual person. I believe that whoever is born to you was meant to be born to you regardless of the vessel they arrive in. The body is just that, a body, with no thoughts or logic or personality. I see an abortion as a way of pausing the birth of that individual so you can have it at the optimal time of your life.

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
So really if you were heartless enough to do something like that, you deserve any retaliation he metes out.

(Doesn't anyone else think it's incredibly sick and unfair that a woman can maliciously abort a man's baby and legally get away with it, while the law just expects him to take it?)

Really? Any punishment? That's logical.
"How dare you dispose of a bundle of cells that may possibly have one day been a human being! What's wrong with you?
Why couldn't you just carry it around for nine months, have your body ruined, go through extreme physical changes, hormonal fluctuations, emotional mood swings, and face the shame of having everyone know you spread your legs and ended up pregnant while I walked around completely, inconspicuously blameless?!?"

That makes a lot of sense if you life in a completely masogonist society where all blame for procreations falls on the woman's shoulders.

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i'm sorry but anti choice men really piss me off. first off this is something that isn't going to affect your body in anyway so you really have no right telling women what to do or what to not do.

Yes, because I'm sure most guys absolutely LOVE it when you tell them, "Oh, by the way, I was totally pregnant with your kid but I got an abortion. Deal with it LOL."

Just so you know for future reference, it's perfectly natural for human men to be EXTREMELY protective of their children, unborn or not. Because believe it or not, men have feelings too. So really if you were heartless enough to do something like that, you deserve any retaliation he metes out.

(Doesn't anyone else think it's incredibly sick and unfair that a woman can maliciously abort a man's baby and legally get away with it, while the law just expects him to take it?)

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Legalize abortion and unwanted pregnancies will go down. Abortion being a safty net increases the amount of unprotected sex and thus pregnancy.

I'm not sure that this is true. People have now gotten used to a lifestyle in which unprotected sex plays a large part, and people aren't going to stop jumping just because you took away the safety net. I think clpo was trying to convey this point in an admirably subtle fashion when he wrote: 'We're humans: we're always ready for sex. You try telling people to stop.'If there is anything to blame for high levels of teenage pregnancy in the US, a much better candidate for blame is abstinence-only sex ed classes, which leave teenagers woefully under-prepared.

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Only those who feel that termination of human life is justifiable by convenience.

And this rudeness is only excused if your definition of human being holds up, and I'm not at all convinced that it does. I'm a vegetarian and anti-death penalty, so the subject of taking life is one in which I have a certain amount of ethical interest. Even I, with my already expanded definition of murder, do not consider abortion to be monstrous or even wrong. Foetuses do not have rights; taking Peter Singer's definition of rights, there is no reason to accord a bundle of cells or a foetus with no chance of survival independent of the mother any form of rights whatsoever, since, especially during the early stages (which is why the UK abortion limit is set at 24 weeks) they are unable to feel pain and thus have no interests.

and let me guess... you are for the death penalty.

yes you who love human life and respect it.

lol, it's not alive until it takes its first breath.

i'm sorry but anti choice men really piss me off. first off this is something that isn't going to affect your body in anyway so you really have no right telling women what to do or what to not do.

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Baby shortage? Tell that to the inner cities. Tell that to kids who have to suffer with horrible foster parents. I'm not the only one to say how many kids there are still looking to be adopted.

I'm gunna guess you're not from the inner city, because those who are know how easy it is to get an abortion. The only difficulty is paying for it, which the majority still manage. In fact, in the inner city of Atlanta (where I'm from) it's common for teenagers to have several abortions for no reasons but birth control. Can't be bothered with condoms or anything. If they can't manage it, they give it up for adoption.
So now, why are you bringing this up like it's a geographical problem?

So do you justify abortion based on the fact that some foster parents are horrible? And BTW, foster kids to NOT come from adoption, they come from the government taking kids from broken homes away from their parents unwillingly. Different situation. Also many of these horrible parents volunteer to be parents, so legalizing abortion doesn't get rid of them at all.

Instead the ones who know they aren't ready for kids will use protection or not have sex at all. Simple as that. If they fail to do so, adoption is an option... and I'd like to see these "studies" that adoption (NOT foster care) increases the likelihood of a life of crime... preferably not on a pro-choice website as the study would obviously be bias.

quote:

Do you say that to everyone you disagree with?

Only those who feel that termination of human life is justifiable by convenience. You seem to acknowledge that it's killing a human life (at least, you don't argue against this idea.), yet find it excusable if someone isn't ready. That's worse than not thinking of it as killing.
And I apologize, but people who allow for the killing of helpless humans for such a senseless cause is inexcusable to me.

My name is Sarah
>> > I am but three,
>> > My eyes are swollen
>> > I cannot see,
>> > I must be stupid
>> > I must be bad,
>> > What else could have made
>> > My daddy so mad?
>> > I wish I were better
>> > I wish I weren't ugly,
>> > Then maybe my mommy
>> > Would still want to hug me.
>> >
>> >
>> > I can't speak at all
>> > I can't do a wrong
>> > Or else I'm locked up
>> > All the day long.
>> >
>> >
>> > When I awake I'm all alone
>> > The house is dark
>> > My folks aren't home.
>> > When my mommy does come
>> > I'll try and be nice,
>> > So maybe I'll get just
>> > One whipping tonight.
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't make a sound!
>> > I just heard a car
>> > My daddy is back
>> > From Charlie's Bar.
>> >
>> >
>> > I hear him curse
>> > My name he calls
>> > I press myself
>> > Against the wall.
>> >
>> >
>> > I try and hide
>> > From his evil eyes
>> > I'm so afraid now
>> > I'm starting to cry.
>> >
>> >
>> > He finds me weeping
>> > He shouts ugly words,
>> > He says its my fault
>> > That he suffers at work.
>> >
>> >
>> > He slaps me and hits me
>> > And yells at me more,
>> > I finally get free
>> > And I run for the door.
>> >
>> >
>> > He's already locked it
>> > And I start to bawl,
>> > He takes me and throws me
>> > Against the hard wall.
>> >
>> >
>> > I fall to the floor
>> > With my bones nearly broken,
>> > And my daddy continues
>> > With more bad words spoken...
>> >
>> >
>> > "I'm sorry!", I scream
>> > But its now much too late
>> > His face has been twisted
>> > Into unimaginable hate.
>> >
>> >
>> > The hurt and the pain
>> > Again and again
>> > Oh please God, have mercy!
>> > Oh please let it end!
>> >
>> >
>> > And he finally stops
>> > And heads for the door,
>> > While I lay there motionless
>> > Sprawled on the floor.
>> >
>> >
>> > My name is Sarah
>> > And I am but three,
>> > Tonight my daddy
>> > Murdered me.

so u still think abortion is bad. this unwanted, unloved, abused child shouldn't have just been aborted instead of being beaten to death by her dad, wat good came out of letting her live, wat mercy.


or lets talk about adoption they go into foster care then get raped, then have 5 different homes in 3 years never e=being able to attach to ppl then this poem happens but it's not "my dad" but "my foster dad" lets get the kids that are already born adopted b4 we talk about having more kids hoping for parents

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Your argument "well they'll grow up in a bad environment anyway" sickens me.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Would you like a paper bag?

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" ...adoption.org claims a baby shortage i.e. more being demanded than supplied. Does that sound numerous to you? Quit making claims that come from your imagination.

Baby shortage? Tell that to the inner cities. Tell that to kids who have to suffer with horrible foster parents. I'm not the only one to say how many kids there are still looking to be adopted.

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If you're not ready for food, then don't eat. Not ready to have kids then you are certainly not ready for sex.

We're humans: we're always ready for sex. You try telling people to stop.

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Normally those who are pro-choice are at least worthy of respect but you sir are a monster.

Do you say that to everyone you disagree with?

Now, I get the feeling you think I'm advocating forced abortions. I'm doing no such thing. I dislike abortions as much as the next person. However, unlike the next person, I realize that they can sometimes be necessary. I'm not pushing it on anyone, and if you calmed down instead of calling me a monster, you might actually see that.

Legalize abortion and unwanted pregnancies will go down. Abortion being a safty net increases the amount of unprotected sex and thus pregnancy. Your argument "well they'll grow up in a bad environment anyway" sickens me. If a kid gets murdered who lives the conditions you described, does that make it all right because they had a bad life anyway? Absolutely not! The conditions a child will be born into is not close to justifying taking its life. I'm so sick of the argument "They're not ready!" By your definition of ready, no one in a third world country can have kids.
We say adoption is the answer to saving lives. You respond adoption is inefficient??? You're right. Let's stop welfare and relief efforts because they are inefficient. Human life isn't worth that much. "the amount of kids needing to be adopted dropped sharply, but even the ones who remain are quite numerous" ...adoption.org claims a baby shortage i.e. more being demanded than supplied. Does that sound numerous to you? Quit making claims that come from your imagination.
"Majority of women don't do it because they don't feel ready." If you're not ready for food, then don't eat. Not ready to have kids then you are certainly not ready for sex. How can I make this simpler? "Well, after we adopted Fluffy here we decided I wasn't ready to pay for dog food so we shot him." I can go on, but it would just too complicated.
Normally those who are pro-choice are at least worthy of respect but you sir are a monster.

Try reading what I wrote. If you had graduated third grade, you wouldn't need to ask that question, would you?

But because I'm a nice guy, I'll tell you. They're not ready when they're "generally poor and uneducated, living in the bad part of town" not to mention high on drugs or hooked on alcohol. Or did you not realize that first world countries have poor people?

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then you probably deserve to get pregnant

Lol, so thats why our populations are nose-diving! Pregnancy is a punishment, a horrible affliction, a disease.
Great, I really love my society.

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but I don't think that rape can ever be blamed on the victim. It's the rapist that has committed the crime.

Amen

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The majority of women who get abortions do it because they don't feel ready for a child. They're generally poor and uneducated, living in the bad part of town.

You know, its a bit rich how western women claim that they aren't ready for children. What exactly do they define as ready?

Adoption is inefficient. After abortion was legalized, the amount of kids needing to be adopted dropped sharply, but even the ones who remain are quite numerous. Not only that, but adopted kids are still more likely to turn to crime, especially if they end up in a bad household (and let's face it: there are too many of those in the United States).

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Now, let's say abortion is outlawed. These women who would be most likely to get abortions must now have their babies. These babies will now grow up in poor environments. They may be unwanted, or they may have an alcoholic or crackhead for a mother. Numerous studies have shown that kids growing up in situations like this are most likely to either follow in their parent's footsteps (become poor, uneducated, teenage mothers) or turn to a life of crime. In short, their lives really aren't going to be very good at all. This is not to say that some won't rise above that kind of life, but unfortunately, those kids are among the minority.

We're meant to believe adoption is the alternative...

I had an interesting thought the other day. People who are avidly pro-life claim to be acting in the best interests of the baby. But is this completely true? Sure, they're protecting the baby from being killed, but what about after?

The majority of women who get abortions do it because they don't feel ready for a child. They're generally poor and uneducated, living in the bad part of town. They may be drug-users or alcoholics who fear their own destructive behavior would hurt their newborn. Or perhaps they simply don't want the child.

Now, let's say abortion is outlawed. These women who would be most likely to get abortions must now have their babies. These babies will now grow up in poor environments. They may be unwanted, or they may have an alcoholic or crackhead for a mother. Numerous studies have shown that kids growing up in situations like this are most likely to either follow in their parent's footsteps (become poor, uneducated, teenage mothers) or turn to a life of crime. In short, their lives really aren't going to be very good at all. This is not to say that some won't rise above that kind of life, but unfortunately, those kids are among the minority.

So, if you really did care about the well being of the child, you'd recognize that forcing them to be born is as much a punishment to the child as it could be to the mother, especially if they're unwanted. Following the legalization of abortion in the United States, infanticide rates dropped rapidly, and more than 20 years later, crime dropped even more (as a direct result of all those future criminals not being born).

While I certainly don't condone abortion as a drastic form of birth control, I would rather it be left open for women to make the choice. Believe it or not, women know if they'll be a good mother or not, so I'd rather they had an abortion than be forced to give birth to a child who won't be wanted or taken good care of.

quote:

Originally posted by hopeslydevoted07:
If you are going to start having unprotected sex, not get on birth control, or give yourself an image of being "easy", then you probably deserve to get pregnant.

I'm sorry about what you had to go through, but I completely disagree that you deserve to be forcibly impregnated if people think you are easy. I mean people spread lies about other people all the time, and even if you are promiscous, that doesn't give others the right to rape you. Maybe I misinterpreted you, and I would probably do the same if I was in your position (I could never get an abortion), but I don't think that rape can ever be blamed on the victim. It's the rapist that has committed the crime.

And it kind of sucks that you talk about getting pregnant like it's a punishment. Babies are amazing

For the question.. have you ever been pregnant... yes i have, it was unplanned and i was raped, but i never once thought about abortions. Yeah some people might say that if you are raped then you have a reason to get an abortion. Well you don't really. If you are going to start having unprotected sex, not get on birth control, or give yourself an image of being "easy", then you probably deserve to get pregnant. Whether you realize it or not, when you get an abortion, YOU ARE COMMITING MURDER. The baby might not be big enough to see, but it has the potential of growing to become a living person. When you have an abortion, it takes that away. YOU ARE KILLING SOMETHING. Just think of that next time you say abortions are ethical.

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u asked what a medical reason was ikkireed, and what you asked above(the 1st question) is a medical reason duh!!!!!!
and she never said it was her decision whether or not a baby should live, she was simply stating her opinions....

1. I asked what HER definition of a medical reason was and why she was allowed to decide what constituted a medical reason.
2. She said it wasn't our right to take away a life, then said it was okay in Medical reasons. I wanted to know WHY it was only okay in medical reasons.

P.S. Thank you, Maya.