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However, we used slaves out of convenience, we eat animals out of necesity.

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Oh come on, we eat animals out of convenience, it isn't easy to be veg and most people don't want to sacrifice their convenience to be one. There are meat alternatives out there that taste just as good as the real (dead) thing. (I know you told me you tried one of those once but not all of them are going to be good)

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it's not like I want animals to die.

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Hello? *knocks luvabug on head like a door* Is anybody home? If you don't want animals to die, then why do you eat them? Death is required in the production of meat, believe it or not.
OK, even if you're not concerned about the animals who fall victim to the meat industry, what about the people? http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2001/07/meatpacking.html http://www.factoryfarming.com/labor.htm http://www.poultry.org/labor.htm

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To be quite honest, I don't care.

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Haven't you heard that dogs are intentionally beaten before they are slaughtered because people think it makes the meat better? Or that cats are boiled alive? Sure it's culture or whatever but it's worrying. (and for the most part the tradition of dog-eating is based on myths and folklore) http://www.peta.org/feat/korea/ http://www.koreananimals.org/

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So the whole world should stop eating beef because it offends Hindus?

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No, I was using that as an example.

Hmmm, you never tried to disprove the abortion in meat production argument...was it because you couldn't find the pictures or just that you have nothing to say? If you can't find the pictures, I could email the links to them to you if you want.

Sorry to everyone for being off-topic once again.

How do we know anything? Everything's just a matter of perception.

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mean, back in B.C., the nomads living in freezing temperatures couldn't even find plants because there were none growing, so should they have just let themselves die off instead of eating buffalo and such?

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Umm... luvabug? She already covered that.

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Think about it, yes we did have to eat meat in the stone age, but that was to survive, not because the cave men liked the taste of it. (back then they had to go through a lot of trouble to get it and they probably did it only if they had to do it to survive)

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we eat animals out of necesity.

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According to whom? (This is just another curiousity question.)

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So the whole world should stop eating beef because it offends Hindus?

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In my opinion: If you don't like/agree with something, don't do it. If people started thinking like that instead of forcing things on others, this would be A LOT less complicated world.

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How do you know what animals are meant for? Did you create them?

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Nope, but neither did you, so how do you know that we weren't supposed to use them as a food source? I mean, back in B.C., the nomads living in freezing temperatures couldn't even find plants because there were none growing, so should they have just let themselves die off instead of eating buffalo and such?

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I consider people like you pro-human life because that's the only life you are pro for.

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Call me whatever you like, because I am in fact pro-human life. Don't get me wrong, I love animals and I'm against animal abuse, but I just don't feel it's wrong to eat them. Sorry.

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Well, do you consider slavery bad? They were just trying to get some work done and make life easier for themselves, right?

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Wrong, we were using humans and abusing them. I'm against animal abuse, so don't try and slam me on that one.
However, we used slaves out of convenience, we eat animals out of necesity.

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If you don't understand animal rights/vegetarianism, please don't make comments like this:

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Well seeing that I care more for the human race than I do for animals, I don't exactly spend all my time researching such topics, as I really don't care. Like I said, I'm against animal abuse, it's not like I want animals to die.

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How do you feel about cats and dogs being eaten in other countries? Would you consider them evil?

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To be quite honest, I don't care. Some country (I believe it's China) realized it was easier to skin dogs while they are still alive then when they are dead. So a coat-making company woul rap barbed wire around dogs' necks and raise them up until they were off the floor, spin them around, and then peel their skin off. THAT is the sort of thing I'm against. Using animals as food-not a bad thing.

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Surely Indians consider us to be at least somewhat evil because we eat one of their holiest animals (the cow).

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So the whole world should stop eating beef because it offends Hindus?

Here's another point on the discrimination argument: People eat pigs, cows, turkeys and chickens because they think they are stupid, dirty and deserve to be eaten. People in America would never eat a cat or dog because they know they are not scum-of-the-earth creatures. People who do eat dogs and cats have the perception that they are filthy and disgusting creatures. To quote Dr. Phil (sorry), There is no reality, only perception. You see the world how you want to see it. (I'm not referring to you luvabug in this sentence but to most people) Some people want to abort their babies because they think they will bring them nothing but bad things, while a person like you luvabug, wouldn't see it that way; you would try to give the baby the best life possible. Whether that would be with you or with an adoptive family. See? It's all about how you perceive things, you could see a pregnancy as the worst thing to happen to you or the best.
Getting back to the subject of meat-eating (sorry again), I think killing someone just because they taste good is just as stupid as a drug addict sacrificing his/her well-being or future just to get a high. (pardon me if that's offensive) Think about it, yes we did have to eat meat in the stone age, but that was to survive, not because the cave men liked the taste of it. (back then they had to go through a lot of trouble to get it and they probably did it only if they had to do it to survive) Now we don't need it, we usually eat it just because it tastes good (and usually it's only in how you flavor or season it that makes it taste good anyway).

OK, I've added one too many cents here, sorry.
Sayonara for now.

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If we didn't eat animals, the world would be even more populated, and I know how all you pro-choicers like to complain about how ending abortions would cause the population to go up dramatically. To stop eating animals would do the same.

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It always amazes me how people can still think this. Humans breed livestock. Farmers control their populations. It's about supply and demand. When the atkins diet craze hit and people were (and still are) eating more meat, guess what the farmers had to do? Catch more cows from the wild? No, they bred more. It's unrealistic to think that everyone in the world is going to go veg at once, the less meat people eat, the less animals are bred. To large farming operations, animals are just merchandise to be manufactured and sold. That's why these farms are often called factory farms. www.factoryfarming.com
"all you pro-choicers"? Did I ever say I was a prochoicer? I'm undecided. If I did get pregnant somehow I don't think I could get an abortion because it would just tear me up inside (emotionally I mean).

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Anyways, the animals are't being descriminated against, they aren't there because if their religion or how they look, they're there in the slaughter houses to help feed us.

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I see a lot of discrimination. We treat some animals like dirt (the farmed animals) while we treat other animals like kings (dogs, cats and other companion animals). Do you think they're happy about being killed? Do you think they skip merrily into the slaughterhouse saying "Ooo I'm gonna be somebody's meal!"? How do you feel about cats and dogs being eaten in other countries? Would you consider them evil? Surely Indians consider us to be at least somewhat evil because we eat one of their holiest animals (the cow).

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It's not like humans are doing something evil by killing animals, we're just feeding ourselves?
Is that so bad?

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Well, do you consider slavery bad? They were just trying to get some work done and make life easier for themselves, right? Think about it.

As I have said before, there is abortion in meat production too. Go to www.atourhands.com , go to animals as food, then go to slaughter, and go to the second/third page. There should be pics of aborted calves and pigs. (I would post the exact link to them but they may be taken out by the admin) Surely they must kick and fight as well.
If you don't understand animal rights/vegetarianism, please don't make comments like this:

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To be 100% honest, I saw that paragrapgh and I laughed because animals are meant to be eaten.

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How do you know what animals are meant for? Did you create them?
I consider people like you pro-human life because that's the only life you are pro for.
Go to your library, get Animal Liberation by Peter Singer and read it. Maybe it will help you understand animal rights a little more.
And check out this site too: www.meetyourmeat.com

Sorry for being off-topic (again).

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because animals are meant to be eaten.

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Animals are meant to be eaten by other animals, but not by humans. Humans were not made to eat meat.
Click on "Humans have Neither Fangs Nor Claws"

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I mean, it's proven that animals can suffer, while the suffering of a fetus is constantly debated. (I won't say whether a fetus can or cannot suffer because I simply do not know)

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Since you don't know, I'll tell you. The suffering of a fetus during an abortion is not debatable, it's a fact. They kick and they fight. If they couldn't feel anything, they wouldn't do that.

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“When I see cages crammed with chickens from battery farms thrown on trucks like bundles of trash, I see, with the eyes of my soul, the Umschlagplatz [the spot in the Warsaw Ghetto where Jews were forced onto trains leaving for the death camps]. When I go to a restaurant and see people devouring meat, I feel sick. I see a holocaust on their plates.”

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Hey luvabug, just out of curiousity, what do you think of PETA's "Holocaust on your Plate" campaign?

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To be 100% honest, I saw that paragrapgh and I laughed because animals are meant to be eaten. If we didn't eat animals, the world would be even more populated, and I know how all you pro-choicers like to complain about how ending abortions would cause the population to go up dramatically. To stop eating animals would do the same.
Anyways, the animals are't being descriminated against, they aren't there because if their religion or how they look, they're there in the slaughter houses to help feed us. It's not like humans are doing something evil by killing animals, we're just feeding ourselves?
Is that so bad?

Hey luvabug, just out of curiousity, what do you think of PETA's "Holocaust on your Plate" campaign? www.masskilling.com Since you compare abortion with the holocaust, this shouldn't be as ridiculous to you, right? I mean, it's proven that animals can suffer, while the suffering of a fetus is constantly debated. (I won't say whether a fetus can or cannot suffer because I simply do not know)
By the way, it wasn't PETA who made this comparison first, it was Issac Bashevis Singer.

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Well, anything can be compared to anything, but that doesn't mean that they are alike.

Let me spell it out for you: Abortion is not genocide * the Holocaust was genocide = Abortion is not the Holocaust.

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Abortion is a systematic way to get rid of the unwanted. So was the Holocaust. You can tell me that abortion is not the Holocaust as many times as you wish, I know that it's not. They're just extremly similar.

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I said it could be compared with genocide,

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Well, anything can be compared to anything, but that doesn't mean that they are alike.

Let me spell it out for you: Abortion is not genocide * the Holocaust was genocide = Abortion is not the Holocaust.

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To say anything other than that ("Abortion is genocide," for instance) is not only wildly inappropriate, but it is wildly stupid.

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I didn't say abortion was genocide, I said it could be compared with genocide, so really everything you just said, I agree with.

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but when it was first founded they must have been, seeing that getting black people to abort was the sole purpose of what they were doing.

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If that is true, then it would be totally correct of you to say something along the lines of "The main purpose of Planned Parenthood, at the start of it, was to wipe out blacks. That means Planned Parenthood's main purpose was genocide. Obviously, that it not the main purpose now, blacks aren't the only ones who get abortions, and Planned Parenthood is not the only place to get abortions. Abortion is not genocide, but that was the reason for Planned Parenthood." To say anything other than that ("Abortion is genocide," for instance) is not only wildly inappropriate, but it is wildly stupid.

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You saying that because the founder of Planned Parenthood is racist, all the employees are racist would be like you saying because old my principal is racist, all of the teachers at my old school are racist. And my old principal was racist, yet there were countless minorities on his staff.

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I'm not saying that's what the workers are like now, I'm saying that's what they were like and that racism if the foundation of that organization. I'm completly aware that the workers now may not be racist, but when it was first founded they must have been, seeing that getting black people to abort was the sole purpose of what they were doing.

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How about you don't generalize and assume that every Jewish person will be offended by my avatar?

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I didn't say every Jewish person would be offended, although I haven't met a Jewish person who isn't offended by those bumper-stickers. I said that I was offended, and I'm not even Jewish.

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The people who worked with her already believed those things.

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Oh, so that explains why no black people work at them.

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and yet it's all because of a woman who hated black people.

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You saying that because the founder of Planned Parenthood is racist, all the employees are racist would be like you saying because old my principal is racist, all of the teachers at my old school are racist. And my old principal was racist, yet there were countless minorities on his staff.

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How about you don't generalize and assume that every Christian is going to be as close-minded as you?

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How about you don't generalize and assume that every Jewish person will be offended by my avatar?

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and to assume that everyone is using it for only one of those reasons is stupid.

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I never said everyone who had it was using it for that reason, I said that those who were are being offensive, not everyone.

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Is Margaret Sanger still alive?

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No, but her organization is and the fact still remains that her organization is based upon racism.

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Did Margaret Sanger hand-pick every employee at every single Planned Parenthood, then brainwash them to hold beliefs similar to Hitler?

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She didn't have to brainwash them. The people who worked with her already believed those things.

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Is the Planned Parenthood the only place that you can get abortions?

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No, but they're the main promoters and they're the main people who are responsible for most abortions that take place, and yet it's all because of a woman who hated black people.

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it's offensive to christians.

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How about you don't generalize and assume that every Christian is going to be as close-minded as you?

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Like I said, it's common knowledge that the rainbow is the homosexual symbol.

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Yes, and, like you said, it also represents "God's promise". And it simply represents a rainbow. There are three different reasons for having a rainbow as your avator, and to assume that everyone is using it for only one of those reasons is stupid.

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Yes, because Planned Parenthood is the leading promoter of abortions and that's only because Margaret Sanger had very similar beliefs to Hitler's.

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Is Margaret Sanger still alive? Are African-Americans the only people who get abortions? Did Margaret Sanger hand-pick every employee at every single Planned Parenthood, then brainwash them to hold beliefs similar to Hitler? Is the Planned Parenthood the only place that you can get abortions?

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That's the point. Nobody knows for certain.

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Then why not give the fetus the benefit of the doubt?

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How do you know the people who have it as their avator aren't trying to promote "God's promise"?

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Some may be, but seeing that pretty much all the gays and lesbian users on here have that as their avatar, and it's a known fact that the rainbow is their symbol, it's offensive to christians.

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I don't see how anyone could find the rainbow offensive, considering it doesn't mention homosexuality at all.

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Like I said, it's common knowledge that the rainbow is the homosexual symbol.

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Because the woman who started Planned Parenthood was racist, abortion is like the Holocaust?

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Yes, because Planned Parenthood is the leading promoter of abortions and that's only because Margaret Sanger had very similar beliefs to Hitler's.